Curse

Bryant Again · Dec 12, 2008, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

And have you thought about the reasons WHY they want a higher level cap? Or perhaps they just want to see a bigger number with no other differences to the gameplay?

I've thought about all of the reasons. I just haven't pointed to any of them and said "THIS IS IT!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Of course the majority likes it.

Ask how many people "liked" the rep grinds and how much "fun" it was earning and maintaining the old PvP gear.

No, most people do not like the grind. Most people like the content that comes after the grind. If the grind was so widely enjoyed we'd see a whole lot more people playing Lineage rather than in one country.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

No, but Anet is catering to these people who they know are more willing to buy expansions.

That would be under the assumption that those are the only types of people who would be more than willing to buy continuing expansions.

And, um, that assumption would be wrong.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

So what does it mean?

Hard to reach level cap, no grind.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

I posted this earlier, but to me there is no difference...

See, now if you emphasized on this like I asked you to a couple posts ago this would not be the cluster*%#@ it is now.

Grind in WoW: "Aw geez, in order to experience all of this awesome and great content I have to go through all this grinding crap D: Damn!"

Gind in GW: "Aw geez, look at all of this grind...Oh well, I'll just *play the game first* then do it if I feel like it : D Yay!"

BIG (emphasis on "big") difference between GW and WoW's grind. In GW I can see *all* of the game's content without doing any of the grind. In WoW I can barely do any of it without going through that grind. In GW I can see *all* of the game's content without doing any of the grind. In WoW I can barely do any of it without going through that grind. In Gw...You get it now, yesss?

DreamWind · Dec 12, 2008, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I've thought about all of the reasons. I just haven't pointed to any of them and said "THIS IS IT!"

Well maybe the reasons people want a higher level cap is something you should think about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

No, most people do not like the grind. Most people like the content that comes after the grind. If the grind was so widely enjoyed we'd see a whole lot more people playing Lineage rather than in one country.

People don't like grind? Orly? Then why do we have all these people grinding titles which have nothing to do with the content?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That would be under the assumption that those are the only types of people who would be more than willing to buy continuing expansions.

And, um, that assumption would be wrong.

Assuming people that bought Gw:en are more likely to buy expansions is a wrong assumption? Well ya fooled me.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Hard to reach level cap, no grind.

Until we get a legit "hard way to reach level cap" without any grind at all, I call a load of poo on this idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

BIG (emphasis on "big") difference between GW and WoW's grind. In GW I can see *all* of the game's content without doing any of the grind. In WoW I can barely do any of it without going through that grind. In GW I can see *all* of the game's content without doing any of the grind. In WoW I can barely do any of it without going through that grind. In Gw...You get it now, yesss?

I get your point, but it still doesn't change mine. Changing the level system/cap WILL increase the amount of grind. I have no doubts about that. I also have no doubts that more grind will be in Guild Wars 2, because it has been PROVEN that people enjoy grind in Guild Wars 1. Whether it is optional or not doesn't matter.

Bryant Again · Dec 12, 2008, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Well maybe the reasons people want a higher level cap is something you should think about.

Np, I can do that - but only if you try to look outside the box for once.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

People don't like grind? Orly? Then why do we have all these people grinding titles which have nothing to do with the content?

Go find all of those hundreds of thousands of US and Euro players enjoying Lineage 1 & 2 to no end - oh right.

Direct me to the indisputable proof of people in WoW loving all of the work required to maintain the BG PvP Gear - hold up.

That aside, it's not safe to take one's statements to the complete literal level (unless you're trying to make them look stupid - in which case, yur bayad). I'd have to be one ignorant little ass to not understand that there are exceptions. But I'm not gonna look at someone with R6 KoaBD and say "hay, *everyone* must want to do that!!!"

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

Assuming people that bought Gw:en are more likely to buy expansions is a wrong assumption?

Let's go back to your comment:

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

Then they found out that the majority disliked this (!), so they added more grind in the form of titles and HoM and other such nonsense, and the majority liked it (!)

Maybe - just maybe - people enjoyed the HoM for reasons other than grind? Perhaps the fact that they could show off their armors? Their achievements? Their mini-pets? Soon to be rarer weapons? Their achievements? Their doodahdeedangdurr?

(ps: where the hell do you get these numbers?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Until we get a legit "hard way to reach level cap" without any grind at all, I call a load of poo on this idea.

Then I insist you go and play Oblivion and Mass Effect: two beautiful games that show this system perfectly. Level cap in both is very high and a bit out of reach, but you're never compelled to feel that you "has to levels up!". There's never a situation in either game where you're required to be a certain level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I get your point, but it still doesn't change mine. Changing the level system/cap WILL increase the amount of grind. I have no doubts about that. I also have no doubts that more grind will be in Guild Wars 2, because it has been PROVEN that people enjoy grind in Guild Wars 1. Whether it is optional or not doesn't matter.

Hahahahaha - yes it does.

In Guild Wars I can take my sweet, sweet time with any of the titles and other carrots on a stick. I can take a whole five years with that KoaBD title track if I wanted to - even for rank 1!

The same can't be said in WoW. I have to keep up with my guilds' progressions. If I'm unable to do that I'm kicked out, unless I'm a highly required class - in which case I'm dragging them down. Both are pretty bad.

This isn't to say that there are guild's in GW that are the same. But if you get fed up with it all and tell them all to "*#$@ off" and say that you "don't wanna do this" then you won't be missing out on much. In WoW, you'd be screwed.

GW = Optional.
WoW = Isn't.
Huge - Difference.

@people: Way2notspecify#of.

But given, um, THIS:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Ask how many people "liked" the rep grinds and how much "fun" it was earning and maintaining the old PvP gear.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If the grind was so widely enjoyed we'd see a whole lot more people playing Lineage rather than in one country.

...I'd say the #'s aren't terribly high as opposed to those who don't enjoy the grind. Notice how WoW's subscription fees continued to grow after they reduced the grind? I thought everyone liked it!?

DreamWind · Dec 12, 2008, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That aside, it's not safe to take one's statements to the complete literal level (unless you're trying to make them look stupid - in which case, yur bayad). I'd have to be one ignorant little ass to not understand that there are exceptions. But I'm not gonna look at someone with R6 KoaBD and say "hay, *everyone* must want to do that!!!"

I think its pretty clear that the title system has been a successful system (from Anet's point of view not from mine). This isn't a case of "exceptions", this is without question a case of the majority. Just go to any outpost and you see 90% of the players with some form of title on....many of them with a high level grind title. Do I have exact numbers? No...but its a very good educated guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Maybe - just maybe - people enjoyed the HoM for reasons other than grind? Perhaps the fact that they could show off their armors? Their achievements? Their mini-pets? Soon to be rarer weapons? Their achievements? Their doodahdeedangdurr?

Of course. But don't you see something interesting about Anet giving us a direct link to GW2 by something that promotes grind?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Then I insist you go and play Oblivion and Mass Effect: two beautiful games that show this system perfectly. Level cap in both is very high and a bit out of reach, but you're never compelled to feel that you "has to levels up!". There's never a situation in either game where you're required to be a certain level.

That is exactly what we have in Guild Wars 1 now...a system where you never feel you have to level up and you are not required to be a certain level (usually because you are already 20). Surely people want a higher level cap for reasons other than just being able to see a bigger number?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

GW = Optional.
WoW = Isn't.
Huge - Difference.

To me grind is grind. Either the game has it or it doesn't...particularly in Guild Wars which went from almost zero grind to a lot of "optional" grind. I see what you are trying to say...it is still irrelevent to my point though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

...I'd say the #'s aren't terribly high as opposed to those who don't enjoy the grind. Notice how WoW's subscription fees continued to grow after they reduced the grind? I thought everyone liked it!?

How do you know the #s aren't terribly high? I'd say the number of people in outposts with grind based titles is a good observation to the number of people who may enjoy some form of grind (optional or not). I'd also like to see the data saying that WoW's suscription fees grew based on changes in grind? I didn't think there was ever data done on that...

And lastly...I'm not saying everyone likes grind. I'm saying a lot of people are ready and willing to play it, and many people do like it.

Bryant Again · Dec 12, 2008, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Replying to this portion is in reply to a lot of your post:

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

Do I have exact numbers? No...but its a very good educated guess.

Not really. Given what you've said here shows that your "educated guess" came from the personal observation of your gaming experience:

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

Just go to any outpost and you see 90% of the players with some form of title on....

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

How do you know the #s aren't terribly high? I'd say the number of people in outposts with grind based titles is a good observation to the number of people who may enjoy some form of grind.

...and that single, biased lens from yourself is pretty much nothing. Even if "all yo' friends" agreed with each other it would still be nothing since in order for it to actually mean something you'd have to correctly and appropriately calculate data between quite a thousand people about quite a many experiences.

Simply put, those are resources you don't have access to. Therefore you're "educated guess" is pretty much baseless save for your personal experience, but that too is completely and entirely insignificant.

What I bring to the table is a bit different:
-I point out continually that Lineage is popular only at it's point of origin. Both 1 & 2 are completely filled to the brim with grind, yet they're popular seldom in other areas.
-I frequently remind that WoW has been cutting down the amount of grind in it's game over the years, yet earning more players at the same time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Of course. But don't you see something interesting about Anet giving us a direct link to GW2 by something that promotes grind?

Because apparently grind is *all* it promotes. Totally not earning achievements for completing challenging dungeons, collecting heroes, armors, weapons, or mini-pets.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

...but only if you try to look outside the box for once.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

Surely people want a higher level cap for reasons other than just being able to see a bigger number?

I wouldn't assume that those same people would want grind as well, though.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

I see what you are trying to say...it is still irrelevent to my point though.

You're point (at least part of it, you seem to be greatly attached to the notion that "high levels automatically = grind") is that there's going to be grind. My point is that it's not going to matter. The more players ANet is able to cater to the better.

It's not the "grind" that's evil, it's why it's there and what it does.

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Originally Posted by DreamWind

I'd also like to see the data saying that WoW's suscription fees grew based on changes in grind? I didn't think there was ever data done on that...

You read what I said wrong. I was referring to your claim that "GRIND RULEZ" apparently and that if WoW chopped such a shitload of it off we'd see less players in it. The opposite happened: 12 million accounts.

DreamWind · Dec 12, 2008, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

...and that single, biased lens from yourself is pretty much nothing. Even if "all yo' friends" agreed with each other it would still be nothing since in order for it to actually mean something you'd have to correctly and appropriately calculate data between quite a thousand people about quite a many experiences.

Simply put, those are resources you don't have access to. Therefore you're "educated guess" is pretty much baseless save for your personal experience, but that too is completely and entirely insignificant.

Meh...you are being technical instead of practical. You sound like a person who clearly sees something take place, yet claims that many experiments must be performed until we know its true. I'm betting a global poll wouldn't be enough either. All I'm saying is go to an outpost and look for yourself. Its as clear as day.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

-I frequently remind that WoW has been cutting down the amount of grind in it's game over the years, yet earning more players at the same time.

You are claiming my assumptions are wrong, yet you make THIS claim?! How do we know that a grind reduction has anything whatsoever to do with increased subscriptions? Not to mention, what does this have to do with grind in Guild Wars?

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Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Because apparently grind is *all* it promotes. Totally not earning achievements for completing challenging dungeons, collecting heroes, armors, weapons, or mini-pets.

It doesn't matter...all that matters is grind of PART of what it promotes in a game when grind used to be not promoted AT ALL and was FROWNED upon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I wouldn't assume that those same people would want grind as well, though.

It doesn't matter whether they want it or not, because a higher level cap is almost surely going to bring it...assuredly compared to the level system as is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You're point (at least part of it, you seem to be greatly attached to the notion that "high levels automatically = grind") is that there's going to be grind. My point is that it's not going to matter. The more players ANet is able to cater to the better.

It's not the "grind" that's evil, it's why it's there and what it does.

High levels doesn't automatically equal grind, but a change in the level system means HIGHER grind. I'm saying if they increase grind that in itself is catering to more players. Guild Wars didn't have ENOUGH grind for the average player. Titles came into existence for these players, and Guild Wars 2is probably going to have grind x10 because Anet realized they didn't add enough to satisfy people in GW1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

You read what I said wrong. I was referring to your claim that "GRIND RULEZ" apparently and that if WoW chopped such a shitload of it off we'd see less players in it. The opposite happened: 12 million accounts.

Again...since when is accounts directly correlated with grind amount? I could easily argue that WoW is known in many circles as having a lot of grind (regardless of the lessened grind)...and yet it still has that many subscribers. And this is Guild Wars we are talking about...

SmartBomb · Dec 12, 2008, 08:17 PM // 20:17

High to unlimited cap would be best in my opinion as long as it is mainly for prestige. no one would have grind to access new areas or missions and what-not.

Bryant Again · Dec 14, 2008, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Meh...you are being technical instead of practical.

It's totally fine to be practical and wreckless until one person experiences something far different than the other. Case in point? PUGs. There are just as many people who love playing with others as those that do alone.

Further case in point? My experience: when I'm in LA I'm surrounded by "nubs". For every maxed Carto title I run across I bump into about 50 people with the map only covered by 60-70%. For every person I see with 15k I see 100 others with mismatched armor that's probably not even maxed.

...But what do I suggest? It's not that I'm jumping to saying "oh noes players don't likes the grind", I say we look more into it. See why players aren't going for titles and other goodies instead of glancing and guessing. You solve math problems, not estimate them.

The fact that we're arguing pretty much shows we cannot in any way be "practical" about this. Because my experience is widely different than your experience, that means we're actually going to have to do our homework.

But hey, you can go right ahead and do exactly like ANet did with it's PvP if you'd like: assume to know what the playerbase wants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

It doesn't matter...all that matters is grind of PART of what it promotes in a game when grind used to be not promoted AT ALL and was FROWNED upon.

Sup Sonya? Anyways: What does matter, though, is that all of this grind is so unrequired to experience all of the game's actual content that it's questionable to call it grind at all. With the buff to the PvE skills (even though they more required a nerf) this became even moreso.

Grind that's required to experience the content is completely different than grind that simply inflates your e-peen and does a barely marginal difference in a few skills. Grasp this, understand this, love this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

It doesn't matter whether they want it or not, because a higher level cap is almost surely going to bring it...assuredly compared to the level system as is.

High levels doesn't automatically equal grind, but a change in the level system means HIGHER grind. I'm saying if they increase grind that in itself is catering to more players. Guild Wars didn't have ENOUGH grind for the average player. Titles came into existence for these players, and Guild Wars 2is probably going to have grind x10 because Anet realized they didn't add enough to satisfy people in GW1.

Most of this portion is largely invalidated save for the bold (play ME or Oblivion, then talk).

See, the beauty in optional grind is you can add as much of it as you want to your game and it still won't matter. They could add a million different title tracks and I still wouldn't care because they would only poke, not shatter, my gameplay experience.

Now for the person who does enjoy the grind...then cool, it's win-win: I don't have to do it, he does it if he wants to. I don't feel discouraged and weak for not doing it, he gets his grind. If the utmost largest factor you can get from it is vanity, then awesome. If not, something went wrong.

That's what ANet did with GW1: They added not just grind but optional grind. They knew how bloated and cheap it could be interpreted if used to only extend the middle of the campaigns, but offered as an afterthought it's not so bad an idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Again...since when is accounts directly correlated with grind amount?

It's the number of active accounts, people who are actually staying subscribed to the game after the trial is up.

But you do make a good point: the game's numbers were going up quite a bit before they reduced a lot of the required grind. However, it's not the fact that numbers are going up that points to people being more in support of less grind and rather that there may not be too many people who truly want the grindsandwhich. However this is also why I continually bring up the fact that the Lineage series is not terribly popular save for one area.

DreamWind · Dec 14, 2008, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The fact that we're arguing pretty much shows we cannot in any way be "practical" about this. Because my experience is widely different than your experience, that means we're actually going to have to do our homework.

But hey, you can go right ahead and do exactly like ANet did with it's PvP if you'd like: assume to know what the playerbase wants.

You say your experience is different than mine, and that you don't see the same thing I do. Fine. So let's go by the changes Anet has made to the game. Anet obviously is making changes they feel will make the most players happy. And what did they do? They added grind to their game.

And you don't have a point with PvP. Anet made automated tournaments specifically so they could take resources off of PvP, and move them to PvE where the majority of players wanted it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Grind that's required to experience the content is completely different than grind that simply inflates your e-peen and does a barely marginal difference in a few skills. Grasp this, understand this, love this.

Don't you see what happened? Even the content has been turned into grind (they want people to go through it more than once). All that matters is grind used to be FROWNED UPON in Guild Wars and now it is ACCEPTED and even LOVED. Optional or required is meaningless to my point. Grasp this, understand this, love this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

That's what ANet did with GW1: They added not just grind but optional grind. They knew how bloated and cheap it could be interpreted if used to only extend the middle of the campaigns, but offered as an afterthought it's not so bad an idea.

Again irrelevent to my point above...but lets go back to the point of this thread. Increasing level cap...can you sit here and tell me with a straight face that the idea of a higher level cap will not increase grind more than the current system?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

But you do make a good point: the game's numbers were going up quite a bit before they reduced a lot of the required grind. However, it's not the fact that numbers are going up that points to people being more in support of less grind and rather that there may not be too many people who truly want the grindsandwhich. However this is also why I continually bring up the fact that the Lineage series is not terribly popular save for one area.

You keep bringing up Lineage...I don't know why. It simply proves that people enjoy grind, even if they aren't Americans. The fact that the majority of players like WoW is simply a cultural thing...most people I know have heard of WoW but not GW or Lineage.

Bryant Again · Dec 15, 2008, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You say your experience is different than mine, and that you don't see the same thing I do. Fine. So let's go by the changes Anet has made to the game. Anet obviously is making changes they feel will make the most players happy. And what did they do? They added grind to their game.

And you don't have a point with PvP. Anet made automated tournaments specifically so they could take resources off of PvP, and move them to PvE where the majority of players wanted it.

Is it to make the most players happy, or to satiate a few players happy and to give everyone a chance to be recognized

It's essentially no different than the achievement system on the Xbox 360. I guess the entire game library for it is completely and utterly full of "grind".

Which brings us to another point: subjectivity. Yes, you're going to get a lot of heated comments from people being adamantly and violent against grind. But what happens when the "grind" of the discussion is 99% optional? When all of those millions of hours could be ignored at nearly no consequence?

Yes, your point can't be argued that there were people fully against grind in the past. But are people on the same page as you? Could it possibly be accepted because frankly no one's going to give a shit?

People will be pissed when they have to actually *do* the grind, but what can be said when it's all optional?:
"Does GW have grind?"
"Yes, so to speak."
"OMG THAT SUX! Why do I have to playthrough this crap just to play the game?"
"You don't. It's all optional."
"oh."

"All that matters is grind used to be FROWNED UPON in Guild Wars..."

It still is. But standard "mmo grind" is not the same as the "grind" we have in Guild Wars.

"...and now it is ACCEPTED and even LOVED."

What ANet has added to their game isn't terribly harmful if damaging at all. As is now it's pretty much exactly the same as earning achievements on Xbox Live, even moreso with the buff to PvE skills.

I hate doing snippets, but I'm just using this as an example.

In regards to my PvP comment: ANet got the players' priorities incorrect. People wanted, above all else, balance. ANet wanted to add more skills which would much more easily screw up said balance. Players got pissed. ANet lost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Increasing level cap...can you sit here and tell me with a straight face that the idea of a higher level cap will not increase grind more than the current system?

Wait and see.

For me, it's not going to be "grind" if I have to be certain levels for certain areas. It's not going to be "grind" for me if I'm never beated and say "oh if only I was a higher level". It's not grind for me *now* because I don't have to do any of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You keep bringing up Lineage...I don't know why.

It's full of grind. Nearly entirely.

To be good, you do not rely on skill. You really completely and entirely on time-spent.

If there's such a huge demand for "GRIND" then we would be seeing Lineage 2 to at least have somewhat of a gathering outside of Korea.

bel unbreakable · Dec 15, 2008, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Guys why dont you just shake and make up its a no win argument

DreamWind · Dec 15, 2008, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Is it to make the most players happy, or to satiate a few players happy and to give everyone a chance to be recognized

Yea...through grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Yes, your point can't be argued that there were people fully against grind in the past. But are people on the same page as you? Could it possibly be accepted because frankly no one's going to give a shit?

Of course. At first many people (and Anet) were fully against grind, but then grind was added and a lot of people didn't give a shit. I did though because part of the reason I bought the game to begin with was the idea that NO grind was EVER going to be in the game. Optional or not, grind was not suppose to get you ANYTHING. SKILL was supposed to get you everything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It still is. But standard "mmo grind" is not the same as the "grind" we have in Guild Wars.

What ANet has added to their game isn't terribly harmful if damaging at all. As is now it's pretty much exactly the same as earning achievements on Xbox Live, even moreso with the buff to PvE skills.

You keep bringing up the "optional" vs "neccessary" grind, but it keeps being irrelevent to my points or to this thread...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

In regards to my PvP comment: ANet got the players' priorities incorrect. People wanted, above all else, balance. ANet wanted to add more skills which would much more easily screw up said balance. Players got pissed. ANet lost.

Wrong sadly. People above all else, didn't give a shit about balance. The PvP players did, but almost nobody else did. And Anet clearly obliged, with the recent update more icing on the cake. Most players love the update...people who want balance hate it. Just another thing Anet caved in on (with grind>skill being the other).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

For me, it's not going to be "grind" if I have to be certain levels for certain areas. It's not going to be "grind" for me if I'm never beated and say "oh if only I was a higher level". It's not grind for me *now* because I don't have to do any of it.

Its more grind if you have to do anything more to max out your level than what you have to do now in Guild Wars 1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It's full of grind. Nearly entirely.

To be good, you do not rely on skill. You really completely and entirely on time-spent.

If there's such a huge demand for "GRIND" then we would be seeing Lineage 2 to at least have somewhat of a gathering outside of Korea.

Not neccessarily. As I said...many Americans believe it or not haven't heard of Lineage. In fact, the only real "well known" MMO in America is WoW. It still raises the point that people enjoy grind though, or that game wouldn't have the huge share that it does. Isn't t in the top3 to top5 most played games online?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bel unbreakable

Guys why dont you just shake and make up its a no win argument

Why?

Bryant Again · Dec 15, 2008, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Of course. At first many people (and Anet) were fully against grind, but then grind was added and a lot of people didn't give a shit. I did though because part of the reason I bought the game to begin with was the idea that NO grind was EVER going to be in the game. Optional or not, grind was not suppose to get you ANYTHING. SKILL was supposed to get you everything.

And what does the grind get you?

Titles. A few extra points of damage (very few now due to the PvE skills changes). Vanity. Things that make little to no impact on your gameplay experience.

It goes back to the subjectivity of the term: You see it as grind, I see it as achievements (same as my 360 comment which you skillfully ignored). They're only ANet's little "pat on the backs", just like PS3 trophies, like WoW's achievement system. The progression is near nonexistent. All you get from all this work is titles, vanity, and e-peen.

Calling what we got in GW1 "grind" is pretty much saying that every game for the 360 is grind, good luck with that. In GW1 it's still skill>time spent, and you don't get very much for that time spent.

Now you get to tell me where the grind is in Halo 3 and Gear of War, gogogogogo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Not neccessarily. As I said...many Americans believe it or not haven't heard of Lineage. In fact, the only real "well known" MMO in America is WoW. It still raises the point that people enjoy grind though, or that game wouldn't have the huge share that it does. Isn't t in the top3 to top5 most played games online?

If generally all MMO's and MMO-like games are a bit unknown (I don't consider GW an MMO), then why isn't the Lineage series popular outside of Korea? Likewise, why does GW see such a large lack of interest in Korea?

In regards to the WoW comment: way2ignoreallofwhatisaidearlier. There's solid content in the game, you just have to go through all the grind to get to it. Want to raid this dungeon? First you have to get to be attuned, you have to have the proper gear, you have to etc. etc. etc. Want to be successful in PvP? Don't even think about going in there with a single green or without resilience. Guild Wars is an extremely nice breath of fresh air.

In the end that grind becomes worth it because that's just how much so many enjoy the game. But without that grind, those paychecks at Blizz start to get a bit low much to many's dismay.

Eragon Zarroc · Dec 15, 2008, 08:23 AM // 08:23

should be interesting to see the new cap. more likely than not it will be higher than current.

Master Knightfall · Dec 15, 2008, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Notice how WoW's subscription fees continued to grow after they reduced the grind? I thought everyone liked it!?

lol that's pretty funny since WOW had over 8 million subscribers before they even reduced the grind and just like GW introduced grind to gain more players of that sort WOW reduced it to gain more players of the GW sort. They are drawing upon each other because they are COPYING one another. It's also funny you types keep saying you can't compare GW to WOW yet you continually do when it suits your agenda. lol WOW is clearly the winner in every catagory except one thing....monthly fees. That is the only reason GW stands where it does now, add a monthly fee to GW and it would be down amongst the ranks of a Shadowbane or SWG's. It's not about grind it's not about skill > time, it's about No Monthly Fee period.

bel unbreakable · Dec 15, 2008, 01:21 PM // 13:21

it always was about the no monthly fees
at the end of things it wont matter how high the lvl cap is a lot of ppl wont ever be happy to have to work for their stuff.
take the original the way that was set up got it bang on in my opinion it was such a long way to get max armour/weapons all the best skills were near the end or in some nasty out of the way place .
you could byepass and get run to droks or you could just hunt for mats to get better gear than you found in towns from collectors again hidden all over the shop.
then came those skill unlock packs,factions and,the lazy got worse the point being why has time spent become a nasty phrase

assassin shaun · Dec 15, 2008, 01:25 PM // 13:25

20 is a good lvl- it works here so y change

tbh it doesn't matter what the lvl cap is - on the condition that after a certain lvl u don't gain anymore health/energy/attributes etc.

DreamWind · Dec 15, 2008, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

It goes back to the subjectivity of the term: You see it as grind, I see it as achievements (same as my 360 comment which you skillfully ignored). They're only ANet's little "pat on the backs", just like PS3 trophies, like WoW's achievement system. The progression is near nonexistent. All you get from all this work is titles, vanity, and e-peen.

I see it as achievements as well...achievements through grind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Now you get to tell me where the grind is in Halo 3 and Gear of War, gogogogogo.

I wouldn't know, I don't play those games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

If generally all MMO's and MMO-like games are a bit unknown (I don't consider GW an MMO), then why isn't the Lineage series popular outside of Korea? Likewise, why does GW see such a large lack of interest in Korea?

Because people are playing other games? There are a lot of reasons it might not be. Also, GW was getting a growing Korean following in the beginning, but changes made to the game contributed to a sharp decline.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

In regards to the WoW comment: way2ignoreallofwhatisaidearlier. There's solid content in the game, you just have to go through all the grind to get to it. Want to raid this dungeon? First you have to get to be attuned, you have to have the proper gear, you have to etc. etc. etc. Want to be successful in PvP? Don't even think about going in there with a single green or without resilience. Guild Wars is an extremely nice breath of fresh air.

In the end that grind becomes worth it because that's just how much so many enjoy the game. But without that grind, those paychecks at Blizz start to get a bit low much to many's dismay.

Thats fine, but like I said...this optional vs required thing has nothing to do with my point. My point is that many people enjoy grind optional or not, and raising the level cap almost certainly will cause more grind than we currently have. It gives me a sneaky suspicion that some people actually want a harder level cap for that reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Knightfall

It's also funny you types keep saying you can't compare GW to WOW yet you continually do when it suits your agenda. lol WOW is clearly the winner in every catagory except one thing....monthly fees.

Every MMO type game has to be compared to WoW...there is no other option. And you saying WoW is clearly the winner in every category makes me LoL. Maybe its the leader in categories you enjoy (such as grind), but it still isn't the leader in PvP, even after all these broken GW updates. That being said...yes a monthly fee would be stupid for GW.

BenjZee · Dec 15, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

loving how the majority of this topic is quotes ....
Unlimited level cap would be different actaully (they could make it cosmetic changes at a certain point). I can't really think of an MMO with 'unlimited' levels.

Bryant Again · Dec 16, 2008, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Thats fine, but like I said...this optional vs required thing has nothing to do with my point. My point is that many people enjoy grind optional or not, and raising the level cap almost certainly will cause more grind than we currently have. It gives me a sneaky suspicion that some people actually want a harder level cap for that reason.

Anet keeps adding in all of this "grind" because it's the only ounce of longevity it can give to it's players. They know how vital it is to keep their game so strictly to skill>time, so they toss in all these title hunts as a "this is the best we can do" for players who wish to persue them.

They also keep adding more and more because not only is it completely optional but it's simple to implement: add a title, make it a bit out of reach, satisfy those who like to hip-thrust and show off their e-peen. All the "grind" in Guild Wars does nothing but recongize players who span a long playtime in the game. In such an instance it's completely open to interpretation whether or not it becomes "grind" at all.

For insight: If I was someone completely new to Guild Wars and asked you "does it have grind?", what would you say? Would you leave it at "yes", or would you say "yes, but..."? If the former, shame on you. If the latter, especially if it's to claim that it's optional, then you did good. In many MMO circles, grind is the "content" (many refer to it as "bullshit") you have to go through to get to the actual content, i.e. gameplay that does not consists of "goto A, kill X number of hobgoblintrolls, goto B". But when that grind is only treated as an afterthought, when I can get from point A to point B without having to spend hours killing the same generic monsters over and over again, things are different. It's why you'd need to be specific in your statements. It's why 360 achievements aren't labeled as "grind". It's why some players consider themselves spoiled by Guild Wars.

For further insight: If I myself had never played Guild Wars, asked you the question "does it have grind", you said "yes" and left it there, but then asked you to emphasize on that and find out that the "grind" is completely unneeded to experience all of the game's content, I would easily say: "oh...that's not grind, then". It's not just the amount of time you have to put into something that qualifies it as grind, but also the benefit you get from it and what you miss out on when you don't do it. What's the benefit in being "God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals" besides gaining attention? What do you get for being the highest Zaishen rank besides having swords and spears appear out of nowhere and that do nothing?

You are most certainly right in saying that there are people who like grind. But to assume that's the only group ANet should cater to is quite an oversight. You cater to all types of players possible, easily satiating those who'd like to play through the game from start to finish on a casual lifestyle and those who like to spend numerous hours in each of their games, and it's a good idea to cater to those as well.

This is pretty much why I've been having trouble comprehending your point for so long, and why I've just now realized it: it's 10000000% subjective with little supporting it. You point to all the "grind" in GW as proof of its "high demand" but I point out how easy it is to put in the game and the fact that it's not needed to experience the content. You point out WoW's popularity but fail to realize the rewarding content that comes from the grind - and in addition to that how Blizzard has taken note of the "deadzone" areas in leveling (the points that get the most grindy - and hence, most unpopulated). You point to ANet's decision to "increase the level cap" but I point to Oblivion and Mass Effect, both having high and hard to reach level caps but with no amount of "grind" required to go through (if anything the cap increase sounds just like what they did with titles in GW1: easily satisfy those who like to spend large amounts of time in their game).

That's why I'm not seeing any harm in what ANet's doing to GW2 with the increased level cap and why I don't see anything wrong with what they've done with titles in GW1: they're catering, only slightly, to a very easy to please portion of players while having very little harm to the core beliefs of their game. Given how much ANet makes from it's players each month (i.e. $0), it's hard to implement anything else.